Overt and Covert Narcissism:
When I first began to put this line of enquiry together, one of the things that perplexed me about the two main narcissists I had experienced in my life (which I shall call Adam & Eve) was, that although they portrayed some common core features of narcissism, they also demonstrated distinct and separate constructs of behavior which I found very hard to reconcile. Eve was typical of all the literature that I was reading; however, I was finding it hard to fit Adam’s behavior into five of the nine descriptions necessary for making the diagnosis. I was thrown by the fact that he was quite shy, did show some empathy towards others, and was somewhat introverted, to the point of becoming a recluse from the outer world by his early thirties. Because he was quite shut off from society, generally his obnoxious behavior was reserved for family members and close friends. But the damage he did to family and friends was huge, several members ended up in hospital in intensive care due to his vicious attacks of rage.
However, my investigation led me to a growing body of research that shone the light on the fact that narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) contains two factors or subtypes with distinct differences that I had found for myself in Adam and Eve, namely, these subtitles come under the titles of Overt Narcissism and Covert Narcissism. Although unrelated to each other, these two factors have within them common core features, such as conceit, self-indulgence, and disregard of others. Despite this common core, however, there were also distinct and separate constructs as I had seen with Adam and Eve. For example, Eve fell under the subtitle of The Overt type of narcissism, which provides substantial constructs for Grandiosity-Exhibitionism, and is related to extraversion, self-assurance, and aggression. Whereas Adam belonged to the Covert type of narcissism, which provides substantial constructs for Vulnerability and Hypersensitivity, and is related to introversion, defensiveness, anxiety, and vulnerability to life’s traumas. These distinctions between the Two Faces of Narcissism (overt and covert narcissism) show that narcissism can hold contradictory views of the self. This information is vital for a thorough understanding of what the therapist and the victim needs to be aware of if one is to avoid getting caught in the grasp of anybody suffering with NPD. So let us look at the differences more thoroughly. The following breakdown of overt and covert narcissism is based on material drawn from the studies of Ronningstam and Stone:-
The Overt Narcissist: The arrogant overt form of narcissism describes Eve best as it manifests as grandiosity. The attribution style of this type of narcissist is preoccupied with fantasies of outstanding success in all areas; personal attractiveness, brilliance, ideal love, sense of power, accumulation of wealth etc. Because they believe that they are unique and special, they have a grand sense of self-importance, and believe that they can only be understood by other special or high status people. As a result they exaggerate their achievements and talents, and expect to be recognized as superior, even without sufficient achievements. This can be seen in their boastful, pretentious, self-centered, and self-referential behavior. They present with high expectations of entitlement, always looking for favorable treatment, which of course interferes with all of their relationships, which they are unable to maintain satisfactorily. They have an intense need for admiration, and work hard to seek out situations where their insatiable need can be met by others. If, for any reason the desired admiration is not forthcoming, they will go into a rage. They are so self-absorbed that it would rarely occur to them that others would have reciprocal needs. Because of their need to be the “best”, they behave in a haughty manner with others. They often feel scorned or rejected, and in return they are scornful of others.
They are interpersonally exploitative, and will take advantage of others in order to achieve their own needs. They are very arrogant, but they mask their egotism in a false humility. They lack empathy, and are unable to identify with the needs of others; this also affects their ability to participate in groups. Because of their feelings of worthlessness, they are often envious of others (of their talents, accomplishments and possessions), and then they arrogantly believe that others are envious of them. This causes them to feel suspicious and untrusting of others, and deeply threatened, which creates intense feelings of rage to erupt.
They are very greedy for everything that they see others having, (i.e. information, knowledge, fame, money, position, power etc.) and they will manipulate others in a way that allows them to extract those things from them. It is in the “having” that they feel powerful. They also have a fondness for fast-tracking knowledge, so they will observe others whom they admire, then “model” that behavior, claiming it as their own, which means that a lot of the time they are frauds. They have no problem saying that they have achieved awards, (such as diplomas, degrees, accreditations etc), when if fact this is often untrue.
The overt narcissist is over inflated by their own importance. If however they are criticized, contradicted, or God forbid, lose in some way, they will experience strong negative reactions. Generally, when in public they aim at coming across as cool, calm and sophisticated, however when they cannot contain themselves they display their rage to others. This display can later cause them to feel shame, which is likely to trigger revengeful plans of action against the person who caused them to loose their control. Sometimes the shame reaction is so severe that it creates episodes of depression and suicidal thoughts. The arrogant overt narcissist shows marked deficits in the functioning regarding their self-concept, interpersonal relationships, social adaptations, ethics, standards and ideals.
Covert Narcissist Traits
Covert narcissism: The shy covert form of narcissism is the form that describes Adam best as it is characterized by unfulfilled expectations, and a vulnerability to stress. The attribution style of the covert narcissist is also preoccupied with grandiose fantasies, where he is at the centre of his world. However, these fantasies are not realized as they are beyond his attainment, he lacks the self-confidence and initiative to pull it off. He is plagued by feelings of unworthiness and shame as he is unable to attain his goals, but he keeps that fact hidden. Probably because of his self-doubts, he does not seek affirmation from others. Because of his fear of exposure he is unlikely to seek out appropriate friends, but is more likely to surround himself with inferior types. He will admire people who have high accomplishments; however he will secretly envy them, and hold strong feelings of resentment. He is more likely to hide himself away, and get little credit for his achievements. His deportment is modest, shy, inhibited, shame-prone, and retiring. He is hypervigilant to humiliation and rejection. He has a marked propensity towards feeling ashamed. He is on a relentless search for glory and power (often through his children or other family members), and is very sensitive to criticism and failure. He has an inability to depend or trust on others, and shows irreverence towards authority. He has an inability to see his partner or family as separate individuals with their own interests, rights or values. He shows a genuine inability to comprehend the incest taboo. Because he has difficulties in keeping himself interested and entertained, he is prone to depression. The covert form of narcissism is reflected as hypersensitivity. However, it seems that the covert narcissist fits into everyday society better than the overt variety.
To conclude: According to Paul Wink (Institute of Personality Assessment and Research University of California, Berkeley), when Narcissism is Overt, (Narcissistic Grandiosity-Exhibitionism) it leads to a direct expression of grandiosity and exhibitionism, self-importance, and preoccupation with receiving attention and admiration from others. The difficulty of overt narcissism is that it centers on overconfidence, aggressiveness at the cost of others, and an excessive need for admiration, and is associated to extraversion, aggressiveness, self-assuredness, and the need to be admired by others. Whereas when Covert, (Narcissistic Vulnerability-Sensitivity) it is marked by largely unconscious feelings of grandeur and openly displayed lack of self-confidence and initiative, vague feelings of depression, and an absence of zest for work (narcissistic deficiency). The difficulties associated with covert narcissism is that it includes anxiety and pessimism, lack of fulfillment, and vulnerability to life’s traumas, and is also associated with introversion, hypersensitivity, defensiveness, anxiety, and vulnerability. However, both distinct forms of narcissism are associated with psychological problems and difficulties in effective functioning, and both share common narcissistic characteristics such as conceit, self-indulgence, and disregard for the needs of others.
The Gaslighting Syndrome
When Shame Begets Shame
The 3 Faces Of Evil
My narcissist is right in the middle between these two, an absolute mix of both. He will boast about achievements he’s never done (taking a class in university .. not actually, maybe bought the book from the 2nd hand book store). He will be charming and personable in public and will have everyone crowded around him and then go home and tell all his family and friends to leave him alone because he “needs his personal space”. While he’s charming in public, at home he’s got a “poor me” attitude suggesting he can’t go out because he’s not sure if his anxiety will let him and wants babied by everyone. He plays hero and victim in the same play, it just depends on the stage lighting and what costume is needed at the moment.
Silver:
I have to start off by saying that God did NOT do this to him, evil people did. God has put laws in place for us to protect us and WE choose to obey or not to obey and we reap to OURSELVES the consequences of those choices. We will all be held accountable in all justice to him for the bad choices we have made that unfortunately affect those around us. If more people understood that ALL of Gods word is for us and not just the new testament we would understand how to Love one another better and Gods miracle working power would be freed in our lives but since we all walk around saying that His Law was abolished and I don’t need that bc Jesus died for that already we are walking around with absolutely no spiritual armor on and our minds and souls are open to attack. Beyond the spiritual aspect of this I would say DONT MARRY HIM. Once you are married, you will feel stuck and obligated and his REAL TRUE personality will come out and if hes already covertly telling you physically violent things they will more than likely manifest. I would take a break for a short time to see how he reacts to not getting his way and to see how you feel away from him for an extended time. Please don’t just jump into a marriage after a short time, its a big mistake.
Your comment caught my eye because my ex narc was almost identical to your story especially the devoted “Christian” and the trashing you when she was mad. Is this woman from Bellevue Nebraska? My ex narc in my opinion was a devoted fake Christian that judged her fellow man and woman viciously with put downs and comparisons to herself, she had to be the most vain woman I’ve ever met and was so in love with herself there was no room for her to love anything or anyone else. she finally left me after several months of my not bending to her demands, we separated and lived in separate abodes till she decided she couldn’t control me any longer so it was time to find a new victim, which she did , however during her courtship of her new victim she was telling me how she wanted to be with me and almost had me foolishly coming back but i sensed another man and resisted, well her victim finally took the bait because one Sunday i received a phone call from her new victim telling me to leave her alone ..lol ..ok ummmm but she’s the one that wouldn’t leave me alone but whatever… lol …but what’s even funnier is within a month or two of dating they are getting married??? she had to call me to tell me her great news and while she was at it she had to tell me what a wonderful man he is and that he does everything better than me. Wow ,,,this poor guy is in for the ride of his life and the poor suckers going to hand over 50 percent of his assets to a manipulator from hell. bright side is she has finally left me alone.
These stories all have a common denominator… their behaviors are the same.The denial, silent treatments, lies, smear campaigns and manipulation. My ex is as sweet as can be and you would love her…You would probably think I am an abusive monster, but as you get to know her you start to see everything she says doesn’t add up. That is the thing… they all come from hard childhoods or abusive parents. In our situation, funny thing is they are Christian homes. I just don’t get it.
After reading your story,it sounded exactly what I went through. When I met my ex the same thing happened. She was so loving, caring and I thought I found the one. The funny thing is she is a devoted “Christian”. Actually it was my who told her I love you first because she was so special with me. We started having problems a few months after. The first thing that made me uncomfortable was she had all these guy friends she talked with. They were only “friends” and I had nothing to worry about. Then I started realizing all her stories were not adding up and just like your ex mine was also manipulative. All her ex’s were abusive pigs and she was always the poor victim. Also, everytime time we had a disagreement she would give me long silent treatments. Sometimes she would just disappear for two weeks. This behavior drove me crazy and made me so frustrated. Another thing I noticed everytime she was upset she would trash me to everyone and they would all believe her. I mean trashed me! Said some horrible things. These people never take accountability for anything and just think about themselves.
I met a girl on October 15, 2016. I was introduced to her by her sisters. She was nice looking, but a little rough on the edges. We hit it of instantly. We were meeting up for dates all the time. The first month she told me she loved me; I told her I am glad I finally found my soul mate. This is refereed to as “love bombing”. It was awesome lol. I did not have any complaints. We were having great sex, having fun going out, and just enjoying each other company. Anyway fast forward 6 months later and things started to fall apart slowly. I said something smart to her at my Dad b day celebration and she took it to heart. I apologized numerous times for it. It confused me some much because I did not consider it a deal breaker. Here comes the hypersensitivity. Every time I joked with her she took it personal; scolded me for laughing at other people experiences. I been telling jokes and making me laugh my whole life, and this is the first time someone made me feel bad for my gift. She has been spending the night with me every night damn near since I met her. I gave her keys to my place smh. I knew it was too soon but she validated it by saying,”Guys I date always give me keys to their place, if anything your late giving them”. So i gave here keys being a fool. Anyway I dated this girl for 11 months. Never been inside here place. I voiced my displeasure about it numerous times and she just just said its not much to look at don’t worry about it. Also she kept her belongings in a trash bag near the door. I assigned here room in the dresser and closet for her belonging, but she never put her belongings in their. Everything we had a disagreement she over reacted too it. She would grab her belongings in the trash bag and try to walk out the door and I would have to beg her to stay. Anyway you guys see where this is going. Anyway one night we argued and she told me how she was raped at 21. I instantly was sorry for her. How can someone do this to such a beautiful soul? The father of her child use to beat her senseless, her parents had custody of her child and was making it difficult trying to get custody back, one of her sisters did not talk to her, friends of her was killed within the last year, etc etc… Anyway she was the queen of manipulation. She has me questioning facts about events that happen. Changing the way events happen to benefit her. She had me feeling like I was a terrible boyfriend. And I bought it for a while. Her car got rear ended and it sat on bricks for 4 months. Nice Cadillac only a few years old. I told her I would fix it and she told me our relationship isn’t strong enough for that now. Anyway she rent a car the whole time and I let her use my care and caught uber to work a few times. She got her car fixed and told me I just let her car sit there. I wasn’t a good boyfriend for that……Bitch you pushed me back every time I tried to get your car fixed. I found a specialist to fix the car for 2400 total because I found all the parts. When I told her she said ok. The a couple hours later she told me she put the deposit down lat week and they charging her 4000. I just shook my head. Anyway I gave her a 1000. That is her burden to carry not mind. Anyway her aunt died in May. I came home on my lunch to comfort her. I had to get back to work. I told her to tell me when the funeral was so I could make sure I was their to support her. I asked her everyday about it. She kept telling me she will let me know. Anyway I knew her sisters so I asked them and they told me the funeral already happened. Anyway I asked her why didn’t she tell me and she says “because you weren’t there for me when she died I didn’t want you at the funeral” Anyway she got progressively worse through the relationship. She worked everyday. I asked her to take a day off so we can go out on some dates, and she made me feel bad for it. I had a lot of vacation time saved so I took some of it expecting use to take some trips together. No she just worked and she made me feel bad for even taking those days off because she worked everyday while I was slumming around. She use to always give me the silent treatment when she was mad at me, she all suffered from depression and PTSD. Her mom was also a narcissist. Its so much I’m leaving out. Anyway she started being disrespectful, and disappear without telling me where she was going; kept her phone on silent; when I asked her about these things she made it seem like I was insecure. She started going through my phone; going through my laptop accusing me of cheating (projection). Telling me how she was a good woman and mother. How can you be a good mother if you only get your son 10hrs a week???? Anyway I can handle most of the bull shit but I wont be disrespected. So aftered she disrespected me one day and told me its none of my fucking business why her phone is off and where she been I was done. I got my locks changed that same day. She come creeping over my house 5 days later talking about she has not heard from me. I tried to remind her how she was talking to me and she said I was crazy and she didn’t talk to me like that lol. I asked her to leave since she wanted to lie in my face. She calls me private saying she changed her number since she didn’t think I trusted her. I was asking her to change her number 6 months ago. Anyway i was like cool what is it? She wouldn’t give it too me smh. She said she have to think about it. Anyway I went 0 contact. Deleted pictures, took down reminders, blocked on social media. I do not want anything to do with this girl. And I feel sorry for the poor soul who dates her next. This is my testimony.
a reichian therapist ..samsel oh his site
http://reichandlowentherapy.org/Content/Character/Scripts/narcissism_symbiotic.html
writes of 5 types of narcissist
than in of themselves do not constitute a character defense type
but rather an ego defense style
narrow narcissism, ‘adhesive’ narcissism, broad narcissism, powerlessness, and victim-role.
the Broad (or closet) narcissism as the covert type
and the overt as the narrow type
and the the victim as samsel’s victim-role type of ego defense narcissism
later perhaps how samsel’s adhesive and powerises types might fit in
but on the other hand I think in a way those 5 ego defense styles might relate
to the 5 basic reichian character types in a way…
the 5 reichian character types are seen as childhood chronological periods
where 2 of them in various systems switch in chronological order
the first one as schizoid WHICH IS WHERE IT THINK MOST NARCISSISTIC VICTIMS HAPPEN
then oral
then psychopathic but samsel writes of this term as misleading and suggest another term
inspirer which could be an aspect of a narcissistic character type?
next is the anal type..
here some suggest that psychopath and anal type can switch order depending
on different circumstances
the last type in the reichian system is
rigid
…the rigid is also where it think most narcissists might be
sansel gives 4 variations of the rigid type
male achiever
hysteric
passive feminine
female achiever
which provides some interesting insights into various dynamics
in the recent past in trying to understand narcissistic dynamics
of overt and covert… it seemed to me that the shifty type
perhaps as related to triangle dynamics
could be a clever combination of overt covert and those good at the shifty type
might be what comes under the article about the triangle aspect
and the best players of the triangle would those who are able to shift
kind of seamlessly according to circumstances back and forth from overt and covert
and thus making the 3rd face of evil
hmmm I forget if I found what is meant by the THREE face of evil
and under is it perhaps such or some other kind of face of evil?
hmmm I forget if I found what is meant by the THREE face of evil
and under is it perhaps such or some other kind of face of evil?
in terms of the samsel/reichian typology
under the rigid types
the clever shifty type could be a blend of hysteric rigid and female-achiever rigid
online i found something about how various narcissistic types have various body types and builds
body type and builds play big in reichian typology
now as to psychopathic
perhaps variations under samsel types might come under his inspirer/psychopathic type and his male-achiever rigid type
I had to reply to a comment because it wouldn’t let me just post one. I’m engaged to a narcissist. Mainly a covert narc but displays some traits of the overt narc in that he’s quite loud, he talks over people and is forward in telling people, his family, they’re sinners and need to be saved. He’s also funny and finds it easy to talk to and crack jokes with strangers e.g shopkeeper, pharmacist. I met him in a church along the road and as soon as I walked in he came straight over to me and started talking, and then gave me his number. He has very low self esteem and is always telling me how much he loves me and how beautiful I am but the cracks are starting to show. He tells me other girls are pretty but has started saying not as pretty as me though. I believe this is called begging. Devaluing a woman then telling her things to raise her self esteem so that they want you. The first thing he said about that was how pretty my sister is. He’s said that a few times. We’re engaged. I haven’t even known him 3 months. He takes up all my time. We were going to get married this summer but since guessing he’s a narcissist I’ve said I want to wait until next year. He said that now the whole church and all our family’s know they’ll be expecting me to set a date, and they’ll not be asking him they’ll be asking me. The first night I told him I liked him too he kissed me without even asking me. It has escalated and I’m afraid to say we have gone all the way. I never even wanted him to kiss me. It’s mainly him but I am not blameless. The thing is he’s using it as a means to manipulate me into marrying him. A couple of weeks ago I told my niece that he said he feels anxious around me and that I don’t do anything to make him feel anxious. She told it’s called gaslighting. I know all about gaslighting and narcissism. Well I thought I did but I didn’t know about the covert narcissist. If I tell him he’s gorgeous he tells me I need glasses. He tells me there’s nothing special about him and he constantly tells me how beautiful I am and how much he loves me. He’s also said that if I ever walked out on him he’d smash my face in them proceeded to tell me he was only joking. At another instance he said he punch my nose until it bled but of course.. he was only kidding! He doesn’t like me talking about my past and def not any ex’s. He’s given me silent treatment many times and says he’s not. When we watch films on amazon he says it’s up to me what we watch. He’ll watch anything I want to watch and then pretends to have seen films but that he’ll watch then for me. When I question him about the films, he’s never even seen them. He says stuff like “that doesn’t matter. What matters is how much I love you.” Or if I ask him if it’s a sad film he’ll say.. “It’s different.” And he’s said things about films which has nothing to do with film, but he does try to keep it generic. I spend all my time with him and I find it difficult to get things done in my house because I have adhd. I stayed at his on Thurs and Friday, I’m at his every night anyway, but when I went home on Sat to do washing and hovering, even though I was going back to his he messaged me saying “I need you I need you I need you.” I phoned him to see if he was ok and he just kept saying “I need you”. So he came round to help me and was so quick in doing it. He doesn’t like me doing anything apart from snuggle up to him. Everytime I pick up my phone he asks me what I’m doing, and I’m hardly even looking at it. I asked him if he wants to watch a film and he said “But you won’t watch it. You’ll start making jewellery or be looking at your phone. !! Last week, when I realised he’s a narc, I was sooo depressed and the anxiety was just awful. He came round after work and I just clung to him crying. The anxiety and depression completely left when I was with him and as soon as he was away it came back. He said it was because we were sinning and I was prob worried about God splitting us up. He says he worries about that all the time so we should get married soon. At one point he even said 2 weeks. He bought me an expensive engagement ring and buys stuff for me a lot. He makes me feel like everything he does is for me. I feel smothered. He had such a hard childhood. He is the oldest of 6 children. His father used to beat him and his mother up, used to take him to the pub with him, send him on dodgy deals then he left and moved in with a woman and murdered her child and was jailed. My fiance was bullied in school for it and his mother used to cut herself really bad. The man she then married also used to beat her and my fiance. Sat night I couldn’t stop crying. Narcissism isn’t a choice. How can a loving God do this. How can he make people this cold through such pain. They live a life of pure devastation, they tire themselves out trying to make people love them and have no empathy because they’ve been hurt that bad when they’re young they’ve never been able to learn how to love.. and then they go to hell. Where is God’s grace and mercy now? Where?!
I wanna add that your daughter seems like the narcissist to me.
No narcissist spends 15 yearsvin therapy.their is no way they can do that kind of self reflection. That is just my opinion.
@Anonymous – August 1, 2016
It would ne nice if this reaches you.
Your husband might have been a psychopath. Or a narc. He sounds very disordered. Your daughter might have inherited his condition or he might be playing with her mind and turning her against you. This is standard practice for psychopaths, who go through the Idealize, Devalue, Discard phases with their partners. When they discard they have to ‘win’ and that means destroying their partner, often by turning the children against their partner.
You sound as if your’re suffering from PTSD.
Have you heard of a website called lovefraud.com?
I would appear to me that you may not have had enough of a relationship to anoint him “The Narcissist”. Were his comments about makeup and sex possibly in humor? That doesn’t sound like a logical narcissistic demand to me. A narcissist would say you were ugly and no fun in bed. If you want a relationship with a man, those are two normal things that women and couples do; not on demand, but certainly out of consideration to enhance your relationship.
I was in a codependent marriage for 32 years. After 20 years I found I had lifelong ADHD. Was always walking on eggshells, but I thought it was all my fault for being born wrong somehow. I was over-stressed and needed therapy. I went to a few therapists that told me I had to leave the relationship because her treatment sounded abusive. I still thought it was all me. Then I found a Psychiatrist who after a couple of years came to the conclusion that she had a narcissistic disorder. He told me to learn about narcissism, which I did. I told her I thought we should separate and see what happens. She took 5 years to ruin me mentally, financially, emotionally. She alienated my children so my relationship with them became more distant. That’s the biggest source of c-PTSD, depression, anxiety and isolation. I used to be a Loved/Loving Father, successful financial professional, with my own business. Now I cannot function in that world any longer, I am broken and have lost my home.
***Christine, I have learned that things like ADHD cause a person to grow up “Devastated by Disapproval” with ongoing Dysthymia. (See ADDitude Magazine, Aug. 2015, Devastated by Disapproval, author: Wm Dodson, M.D. Psychiatrist). I believe this early experience sets up a person to be a perfect victim, if s/he has other qualities that a Narcissist sees as Supply.
As a misandrist, im beginning to see that many so called “nice guys” are actually covert narcissists. This explains why the nice guys good behavior often doesn’t match up with the very bad. For example, i recently dated a man that seemed so sweet and kind. He did many things for me. Then he began telling me that he looks like brad pitt and that i should put on makeup for him and never reject him for sex. I laughed in his face and dumped him. I assumed he was simply a liar. Not realizing that his nice behavior is approval seeking. Two months later we meet again and he seems nice and helpful. Yet couple days later he sends offensive texts and hangs up on me. Now ive taken on a very distant and dominatrix type approach withhim. Ill keep him at my disposal for anything i might need while feeding his need to confirm his inferiority. He enjoys my new approach of discipline and humiliation. It keeps his narc tendencies in check. But i rarely see him. Only if i want something now.
My mother is a overt narsissist, and she makes me feel like I’m crazy, I grew up a prisoner in my own home, me and my 8 siblings were not allowed to have friends, not allowed to leave the property, or go to a school. We were homeschooled.
My mother craved pity, and only thought of herself, she would cry all day, bc of me and my siblings, we were the reason and cause of her grief, from not being good enough, when actually we were very well behaved and did everything for her, my father is an enabler, and a very mean and hateful man who only cared, no, obsessed with my mother.
We cleaned, that is what my childhood was, cleaning and feeling unloved and worthless, cleani,g made my mom happy, for a little bit, then she would have something else to cry about, if she felt we hurt her feelings, she would talk to my father, and we would all be abused and terrified.
My parents are very religious, and talked about hell and damnation, always telling us we were sinners, told us the outside world was a scary place and people where out to hurt us.
My mother was never happy with us, she wasn’t happy with anything unless she was making us feel guilty. It was a hard way to live, never thinking of myself or wants and needs, I remember looking in the mirror in our kitchen one night, I was 16, and I barely saw myself, and I wondered why was it when I looked in the mirror I saw my mother. It was like I was an exstintion of her, to think about myself felt like a sin
Even in the wee hours of the night, I would stay up all night, for time alone, I found most of my siblings did, there were times we would clean at night so my mom would wake up happy, we hoped, but she would say we stayed up to watch tv, not bc we loved her.
We were never able to express ourselves in any way, not in music, not in the way we dressed, not in anywsy, we lived for my mother, and never had time to grow and make our own decisions.
I was terrified of the world, I felt strange, awkward and weird.
When I turned 17 I finally got a phone, but who was I to call? I litterally didn’t know a soul.
Turned 18 and I got a job, was so nervous of talking I threw up at my interview, luckily I still got the job lol
I worked and started realizing ppl weren’t going to hurt me, that the world wasn’t so horrible and that I had been lied to for 18 years!
I decided to get my own apartment,I had to have a cosigner, but my mother only did it if I have her my bank card, I did, not living living with my family felt strange. And never having control of my own money was horrible, still unable to take responsibility for myself, she controlled everything in my life!
, I started talking to guys on facebook, scared as I was, I hung out with them, hE sex, did drugs, I drank vodka every night, my family turned there backs on me, shunned me, so I was all alone. I lost my virginity to a guy who only saw me as a bootycall, but I didn’t know that? How could I have? I thought he liked me lol I figured out the hard way. As time went on I got with a very disturbed individual, who was like my mother and when I tried to break up he broke into my apartment, locked me into the bathroom with him and had a knife, I ended up talking him out of hurting me and himself, and ran out of the door and to my parents for help, I had been drinking that night and when I told my mother, she said she hoped I went to jail and not him. She felt sooo bad for him, but not me!!
Finally, I had had enough, I quit my job, broke my lease and became homeless, had many jobs, moved from one place to the next, decided to take off to California, ended up stranded and homeless on a beach. Running from my problems hadnt helped either.
I came back, and I started realizing there was something very wrong with my fAmily, esp my mother.
I started standi,g up for myself, voicing my opinion, which would cause my mother to have breakdowns, which caused my father to hurt us.
But I continued to do so, talking to my siblings, they have all left, my oldest sis is the golden child and makes my mom feel good about herself, my younever sister is 16 and ran away to live with my other sister in ohio.
I found an amazing man whom i love very much!
He is my rock.
But I’m far from being healed, I have no self esteem anymore, I have no voice, and I find myself agreeing with Things I honestly dont agree with, I go d myself falling back into that role, which was to put myself aside for others.
I make bad choices, and the longest I have held a job is for 1 year, I have been a drifter, a drug addict.
But when I met my boyfriend, everything changed. He uplifted me and showed me what real love is.
I still struggle to this day, and I doubt myself alot, and my very worst fear is ending up like my mother. I don’t want to be like her, but from lack of reassurance as a child and teen years, I find craving peoples approval, making someone disappointed is devastating to me. I have strived my whole life, and I can see some of my mother in me, and it disgusts me. Which makes my self loathing worse. I am improving, it’s not going to happen overnight. I am overcoming, and I’m very proud of my progress,t his arrival had helped me, thankyou
Hi K, All I can say to you is to keep researching, get as much information as you can…… I cannot answer such a huge subject in an email. But I can tell you that not all narcissists are the same, even thought they have many similarities, they also have differences…that is what my book The Three Faces of Evil is all about. The covert narcissist is not generally brash, openly grandiose, confident, ambitious, like the overt narcissist. Actually they are often shy, quiet, passive, insecure, low achievers, and they can come across as very vulnerable, and this can hook the victim into caring for them. Good luck with your research.
Warmest regards.Christine
Hi Christine –
I am so hopeful and anxious to receive a reply from you… Probably two months ago I was introduced to the term covert narcissist. I was very aware of narcissistic personality disorder as I helped a friend get out of a marriage where this was very evident in her husband. But discovering this other type, covert narcissism, has completely rocked my world because I’m starting to believe from the things that I read that my husband is a covert narcissist! I have tried to find as much information as possible and in my search came across the e-book “Know Your Enemy.” The author meant to this you as someone they give thanks to in their journey and I’m just wondering if you’ve read the book and if you actually have a connection with the author… The author is not a mental health professional and so I don’t want to trust inaccurate information. However there is a great deal in this book that I can relate to…
I’m still truly struggling with getting my head around this new information. In my situation the subtleness of it is so extreme and I think a big part of that is due to my empathy for him ( i’ve come across the term “empath” in several of my readings and I would align myself with that ‘role.’). Much of the nasty things I’ve read are not necessarily true in my situation only in that I don’t believe he had to go to extreme measures to get me to return to the narcissistic dance… It was very easy for him to get me to return and provide his narcissistic supply because of my deep compassion and empathy and desire not to hurt his spirit.
I too am a Christian and I have a leadership role in the Christian community. I noticed you responded to another Christian with a great deal of scriptural support and I so appreciate that. You ended with a comment about gaining knowledge… But then said something about knowing how to use the knowledge and that is part of what I’m wrestling with. One worry is that he will try to destroy my reputation and how that will affect our children…
Like others I could go on and on… but will close with that and will be praying for reply that will help me take the next steps that I need to take.
Bless you, Christine!
You won’t like this but you sound exactly like my covert NPD mom. She has 15 years of therapy too. If your daughter has enough issues with you that she hasn’t spoken with you in years maybe you need to do some self reflection? Instead of spending multiple paragraphs talking about how horrible she is for wanting to know her dad?
Hi Andy,
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I have the exact same background story with an O father C mother… but the main abuse lasted 17 years until I finally left home. It still continued after marriage and having children…but it changed. I recently went no contact with the family, and now after reading your story…I see the lengths they will go thru to not loose their main source of supply. I’m so sorry you had to go thru that. Know that your story has quite possibly helped change my lifE for the better. My mother is in fits over not having her grandchildren to post pictures of and me to not focus on and emotionally toy with… her last text said “I want my family back my heart is breaking.” Your story has helped me to realize the importance of continuing to stay. NO CONTACT. No matter WHAT they do or say.
Thank you again…my prayers and hopes for peace are with you.
-Nicky
My daughter is accusing me of being a covert narcissist. She gets very upset at me and hasn’t wanted much of a relationship for quite a long time. She says she doesn’t trust me. I have been in therapy for fifteen years and worked through my issues. I had a very shattering childhood experience being caught between the mental games of several adults. I survived! I never played their game. I objected and sounded the alarm and got into a lot of trouble for it. I was the irritating truth teller. The fly in the ointment. It cost me a lot to stand up for myself, and I am glad I did because I would rather be the voice of dissent than be part of the chaos. They don’t see me as a truth teller. They see me as a whiner and complainer. The victim mentality one. That’s fine. I don’t care. I still love my mom despite the fact I feel she let me down. She did big time, but she is also the only one of them that really loves me. I never doubt she truly loves me. My siblings and my daughter have been very harsh at times. My mom is the only one who cares enough to tell me she loves me.
I work in the mental health industry. I am being honored with the offer to serve on the advisory board of a large mental health facility, and I am a client, not an employee. They have never done that before. I am still in services because of the extremely crushing relationship I have with my daughter. I have counselor training and am qualified to work with people in crisis and recovery, which I am excited to start doing except every time I go through these episodes of her anger and rants at me it just knocks me down for weeks and months. I am getting a lot of support and help, but I can’t seem to stop being heart broken and I cry over this almost every day. I don’t even know my daughter any more. Who is she? Sometimes we have great interactions, but when things go bad she accuses me, reminds me of how I failed her or gets mad at me for moving too close to where she lived or for having hope of a better relationship. The last time she had me dancing to a lot of these things, trying to make me answer to them, and I think what I said was taken as confirmation and admissions I am a covert narcissist.
In that last conversation I finally figured out to stop trying to explain where I fit in my own family. She doesn’t want to hear my story at all. She seems to think I am a big time narc. I have never had that diagnosis and I told her. I was the rebel, not a narc. But she believes so many horrible things about me that it’s useless to try and explain. It just becomes more bullets she can shoot at me. If I told her that, I think she would process it with her idea it is all narcissist speak and classify it as self pity. More evidence of covert narcissism.
I think this relationship is way too toxic for me. But I miss her so much and grieve my baby. I can’t sleep very much. Only a few hours at night. I keep waiting for her to walk through the door and say hello. I love you mom.
I would never put up with this in a relationship with anyone else. They could take a flying leap as far as I am concerned. I would never in a million years treat my own mother this way. I don’t like some of the things my mother did, but I still treat her with respect. I would never yell at her or demand answers from her.
I know I am not a covert narcissist because I know exactly what that is. My daughter has constructed this view of me that is extremely toxic and I don’t really know why. She has not told me the reasons in twenty years of struggle over this. I have tried assuring her that I am aware I was not a perfect parent. I know I was affected by childhood training that wasn’t so great. But come on. I have fifteen years of therapy and I am not even close to being the same person.
The simple truth is she doesn’t want me for her mother. She has dismissed me as her mother. And I need to accept that and move on. It is not something I have been able to do yet because I think of how much I adored her as a child.
I also went through horrible circumsances with her father. He told me if anyone ever came after him for chid support he would take her. He had parental visitation rights, but he never used them. He paid me some support only when he got caught with income one year. They used that to calculate his likely income for a few years. Then he owed me thirteen thousand dollars for eighteen years. He only paid fifty dollars a month on the back debt, then ran the time out so he still owed me about a few thousand dollars he never had to pay. When we broke up I had nothing. He he threw all my possessions into the parking lot of our apartment complex. Then he threw me out the door and locked it. I was pregnant and he did not care. My daughter is in touch with him now and I never told her details of what he did. Now he can fill in the details all he wants and she will probably tell him I was a horrible mother.
So now the daughter I was told to abort because I had cancer but didn’t abort, the daughter I lived in tiny little apartments with no money for anything extra with, and certainly not the personal space we needed, the daughter I went to low paying jobs to support because I loved her so very much from my heart is spending time with him. This man wanted to put me on a Greyhound bus after I had brain surgery because he didn’t want to wait a few days at the hospital when I could be released. I was so naieve that I allowed him to take my savings and buy a car before we were married and he never let me drive it. Then after we were married he traded it in for a new pickup and didn’t let me drive that either. When he threw me out he kept the car and left me with the debt. I didn’t know enough to try and get it from him. He threatened to take her if I asked for child support, so I said okay. But the judge wrote the child support in. The only thing I wanted was to be there when he saw her. He could see her, but I had to be there. I am sure he is telling her I never let him see her. He never even tried to see her. She is crying out to fill the daddy space so I hope he is good to her. I want him to treat her very well. But I am sure they will talk bad about me.
I cannot believe my daughter is treating me like trash when I tried so hard to provide for her. We didn’t have the space we needed because I could only afford little tiny apartments and there was nobody to help me. I was also severely injured in a car accident when she was a year old. That also affected my ability to be a good mother. I was not always sweetness and light. I am eternally sorry for any things I did that hurt her feelings. I had nobody helping me and I was so discouraged and scared. She has no idea how terrified I was every month we would have no food after spending money on bills. I made six dollars and seventy five cents for years. Then finally ten dollars an hour. Then thirteen for about a year. Our rent was between five and seven hundred while she grew up. I didn’t even know about subsidized housing. I just worked because that’s what you are supposed to do. I did the right things. I can’t take this. It was bad enough having a terrible husband. Now a daughter that hates me. She is my only child. I cry a lot. It’s a terrible thing.
If I told her these things she might think I was playing professional victim. I can’t seem to win with her no matter how hard I try. Of course she has her side of things. But she won’t tell me what they are. This is causing me a lot of health problems. I am very sad, but my training and potential for work keeps me upbeat. I have literally spent years on the computer every day to distract myself from the pain of how she has treated me. It’s been very difficult. She fired me as her mother years ago with not opportunity to defend myself. This is not how I wanted my life to end up. I am sure she thinks I am a self pitying dysfunctional loser. But I’m not. I just wish I could stop grieving the loss of mother / daughter time together. She said if she had children she would tell them about me. Meaning I am to never be around them. I wish I could do my life over again. Every day is pain.
I wonder if it is possible to see both forms in the same person? For example, without a primary source of supply, the covert narcissist, resembling the borderline PD in many ways, shifts over to a more overt expression of narcissism when the individual feels confident that he/she is receiving narcissistic supply from the primary relationship. In other words, exploiting the partner to shore up a brittle dysfunctional ego that can then feel more able to attain the grandiosity that they feel entitled to in a more obvious and outwardly exhibitionist and aggressive way??
Thank you so much Christine for you enormous contribution to this topic.
My main issue is getting ‘outsiders’ to believe me… Thanks to your awareness and understanding I’m able to ‘cope’ However, seeing the continuous manipulation and contol my ‘covert narc father has has/has over my mother is heartbreaking. It’s taken me 10 months to at least manage to get mum into a day centre where she can socialise with’normal’people (twice a week) Other than that I’m powerless. My father sees me as an interfering daughter.. When I returned home from abroad through force of circumstance I faced a harsh reality..Listening to my father constantly belittling and intimidating my mother and her subservient response or should I better say no response for peace of mind..To put it more ‘professionally’ he has all the traits of a covert narcissist and the typical ‘gaslighting’ techniques. I have seen over the years their dysfuntional relationship, moreover the psychological/emotional abuse.. The story would be too long to tell as I would have to relate it to my childhood and a traumatic experience with an ex partner/husband (‘narc’) who I left at the cost of losing everything I had possessed (home, financial loss etc).. Prior to my permanent return home.. I realised how my mother had become a ‘recluse’ in her own home. My father’s controlling ways literally meant/ means that my mother had not been writing reading answering the phone etc because HE did/does all that to the extent that she has lost realty of taking her own matters into her own hands. I confronted my father one evening, and told him not to treat my mother in this manner.. He went into a RAGE and hit me, told me I was mentally ill and to get out of the f…….house. I was strong enough to stand my ground and hit him back…This event occurred at the time my mother was at home recovering from a fall and had undergone complex surgery to replace a fractured femur..she was also withdrawing from Trazodone – a prescribe psychotcic drug ( I had been to the family GP to report my concerns).. The background is do complex that I would wish to speak and share my story for others.. It even goes back to when I fought a battle several years ago against the national health system because I did not believe that my mother had been diagnosed with irreversible dementia.. Investigation was carried out and I can still show you documents to prove to you how I saved my mother’s life and how she was mis-diagnosed.. I had everyone against me and was alone but managed to ‘free’ my mother from being institutionalised… Many doors were ‘shut’ in my face because there was a conflict of interest with pharmaceutical companies etc. to tell you. Currently, thanks to my requests of help my mother is attending a day centre .My father does not know what I have told social services because he would become violent and as we already know a covert narcissist is ingenious.. They suggested I contacted a safeguard team which I did and I managed to sneak mum to meet someone who very discreetly chatted to mum BUT it was impossible for them to take action because my mother was distressed probably because of the consequences she knew she would have to face on return home.. Through counselling I have now begun to accept the brutal reality of the situation and gradually coming to terms with the fact that all I can do is limit my contact.. ‘pull away’ and ‘let go’ however hard it is to continue to see the destructive control HE has over my mother. I have had to stop encouraging her writing, telephoning relatives or her dear friends , becoming mentally physically independent because I make his controlling belittling worse..My heart is breaking and worst of all no one else (social services/outsiders) can detect my father’s trait He’s the ‘Perfecion of covert narcissm’ and has the ‘advantage’ of coming from an older generation where he has radicated deep deep rotten roots of control into my mothers’ gentle soul in an era where it truly was a ‘domestic affair only’… ….. Does your book cover the ‘covert narcissti trait? Much gratitude
Andy,
I am in a very similar situation to you. I am 30-year old male who is a covert narcissist. I was closely raised by my mother, who is also a covert narcissist. My father may be a narcissist as well, or have some other type of personality disorder, as he has been vey enabling of the mother’s approach in raising me. I say I was raised closely by mother but I grew up in extreme emotional isolation. She did not offer me anything at all emotionally and my father wasn’t interested in doing so. It has left me muffled and buried and I have no voice inside of me. Both of them together never revealed any of this truth to me and raised me in a forced mental cucoon since birth. About 5 years ago, once I graduated from university and got into a relationship, these issues started coming forward to me. I came to realize that I didn’t even know an emotional world existed because I never operated at that level. My parents abused me covertly with emotional deprivation and I developed many mental coping mechanisms to deal with it. I wasn’t allowed to voice any opinions or concerns as they would get shut down immediately. I recall asking my mother for an extra $5 while getting a larger bill broken down, saying that she owed me a fiver from earlier in the day. My father, who was close by, responded by saying “and how are you going to repay her debt of giving birth to you”. I quieted down immediately and never questioned if that’s assholic on his part and if this is hurtful. My parents made sure to empty me out completely for their own needs, including financially. I forked over $60,000 CAD to them over the years to help them with their ostensibly poor financial situation. I earned all that money diligently while attending university and either working part-time or doing internships.
I got married to the woman I met after university and I’ve made her life a living hell. Through her effort, pain, and shed tears alone, I am sitting here, able to write some words about myself. I had completely no understanding of myself, my situation, my place in life, and how I was actively being abused. Unbeknownst to her when we first met, all of this incredible toxicity was sitting right beneath the surface for me and my home life. Being a covert narcissist myself, I fed her lies to keep the relationship going. I actively abuse her emotionally and do all the things I learned while being the subject of my parents’ life-destroying whims.
Now, I sit here on a workday, feeling pity and anxiety about how to understand, face and address all of this for myself. I am actively ruining another life of my wife, who has provided honest, earnest, and genuine care for me, thinking that all humans of this earth need love, care and compassion. In return, I dish out my nasty self.”
I am looking to heal. To be able to manage this for myself. To stop destroying my wife before my dead eyes. To offer something – something! – to my wife because she has poured her soul into me and I’ve digested it all without the blink of an eye.
My parents were extreme narcissists/disordered types. The damage they did to me and themselves is indescribable. But what hurt me most was when my father , overt narc went covert because of circumstances he suddenly found himself in , and I reacted with reaction formation that has destroyed my life. He loved bombed me to the max after 15 years of abuse since birth. ( My mother , covert narc set me up initially). The love bombing triggered full narcisstic reaction that was really a dissociation that superseded my initial adjustment to abuse. Seemed like a great thing at a time. But it destroyed my life eventually. I’ve never seen in years of being on the net someone else going through what I have gone . It’s like going from a scapegoat to a golden child but within a context of reaction formation. It was inside job. The abuser got inside of my head and that’s brand new ball game.It’s like being schizophrenic in a sense and my father also had paranoic schizophrenia. After four decades of therapies I am still not well. I tried “crazy” therapy 10 years ago , it was good but I started having paranoid like reactions and because I didn’t have a sufficient cognitive understanding then , I got too terrified and quit. I regret it. Now I am dealing with cancer and getting it helped me to slow down when my mind wouldn’t.It’ s a strange thing to be thankful for cancer. That’s what happens when nothing else will do.
A year and a half ago, our son married a woman who has been diagnosed with anxiety disorder, but I also fear she is a covert narcisstist. We live about 6 hours away from them, so it has not been easy to get to know her very well. They had a baby in a month ago. She was very distraught about our son going back to work, and they invited me to spend the week with them. While I was with her during the day she didn’t converse with me at all, we ate meals separately, and would not even give me basic information about stuff. She was chatty when our son came home from work, and also with my husband when he arrived later in the week. When we gave our son an early Father’s Day gift, we also brought her a small gift, She opened her gift, but when our son opened his, he called her name four times to ask her to look at it. She would not look up from her phone, In the past, when I have talked to my son about the possibility she is not interested in developing a relationship with me, he has accused me of taking things personally, being too emotional, and not understanding her anxiety disorder. I absolutely believe in disorders such as depression, anxiety, etc,, and I also understand being exhausted after just having a baby, but I really feel there is more going on.
Hi, have been reading a lot about C and ONP personality types and recognise them in my own family. In spite of being affected by a parent who sounds most definitely like an ONP, I also feel that at least some of the time my achievements provided a sense of pride ( albeit narcissistic!) for the ONP who used it to promote his own self worth with self and others.
Does this also sound like ONP ?
Hi Francis, I don’t think you really need an answer from me, otherwise you would not have cut the ties. But, I suggest you look at the following criteria (which are his defense mechanisms), and tick off how many your man displayed:-
1. Hasa grandiose sense of self-importance.
2. Lives in a fantasy world of exceptional success, power, genius or “perfect” love.
3. Thinks of himself as “special” or privileged, and that they can only be understood by other special or high-status people.
4. Demand excessive amounts of praise or admiration from others.
5. Feels entitled to automatic deference, compliance or favourable treatment from others.
6. Exploitative towards others and take advantage of them.
7. Lack empathy and do not recognise or identify with others’ feelings.
8. Frequently envious of others and think others are envious of them.
9. Act in haughty or arrogant ways.
If you can tick 5 or more of the above criteria, then that indicates Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Christine…one correction…I started out my post to you saying a 15 YEAR relationship. Yikes!! I meant 15-month. Big difference 🙂
Hello, Christine. I enjoyed reading this post. I have a question. I recently ended a 15 year relationship and engagement that was simply EXHAUSTING. I had divorced 3 years prior after quickly realizing that my husband at the time was an Overt Narcissist and once the abuse began and endless sessions of therapy only seemed to escalate his reactions and behavior, I quickly moved on. I find myself thankful that I had been single for a long, long time and used to providing for myself and not fearful of leaving the relationship. Many women do not have the strength to do so. I am one of the fortunate ones and now can manage to my ex with strong boundaries for my 8 yr old daughter’s sake.
However, related to my most recent relationship, I wasn’t even looking to date when I was working with a client who at the end of our business together asked me out. He had been allot of fun along the way (I’m a Realtor). We seemed to hit it off and so we started to date. He seemed to be very attentive and “cutesy” for a guy. He was big on needing to “connect’. So much so we would joke that “he’s the girl and I’m the guy”. So much so it struck me a odd and, “oh, gosh, he needs to connect again??” He also seemed to want to move thing along very fast. He held a department chair and professor position at a local community college and had his doctorate, but my gut from the very beginning gave me a sense that he “exaggerated”. His father was an acclaimed author and one of the most influential activist of modern time”; His brother was deeply involved in the DEA…making him sound like he was at the top of the org. Later to find out that his father…since retired 30 yrs ago is the most adorable and truly humble man and the book he had written was a very short personal accounting of some of his social work in the city of Chicago in the 60’s-80s. His younger brother was a Chicago police offer on loan for a couple years to the DEA and not back with the Chicago police. He himself was a world champion power lifter, U.S. Karate team champion (coach); involved with the Blackhawks (training camp), however truly through the auspices of someone else; claimed to have a high IQ; be mensa material but constantly referred to himself as humble so he didn’t want the mensa label. He also alledgedly was one of the childhood sexual abuse victim in the late 70’s by the chicaoland priests in the Catholic Church, etc, etc., etc….the list goes on and on. I often had red flags because people who are truly humble don’t talk like he talked. And if I did give him HUGE accolades for the things he did 20 years ago, he would accuse me of trying to take his accomplishments away from him…say what?? I thought all those things were great, but they weren’t part of my relationship with him today…I never saw any of that…just like I was in the Army 33 years ago and I don’t need anyone to validate me for that achievement. I know what I did…who I am…part of my story..my past is all. But he was a different story. He told me on NUMEROUS occasions that it was MY JOB as his partner to FILL UP HIS CUP. I told him that he was mistaken. I would gladly make deposits into that cup and always be supportive and loving but that WAS NOT my job and was an unrealistic expectation and one that would set any relationship/partner up to fail. He would INSIST that it was a VERY REALISTIC expectation. I KNOW BETTER. He once confronted me after we left a barbeque because “how dare I talk to another guy (by the way he was in his 70’s and the host of the BBQ) about Muskee fishing when he’s standing right there!! I was like, “what are you talking about”. I must have been making small talk as we just met the neighbor, there was allot of people at the BBQ including his wife, kids and grandkids and I don’t even recall the convo. My fiancé had always, from the beginning, told me he had “many layers”….He TOOK HIMSELF SO SO SO SERIOUSLY. He always talked about being the middle child and never knowing where he fit in. He talked about his mother and how he felt she didn’t give him credit for things. How they didn’t go to any of his power lifting competitions when he was in his 20’s. HIS PARENTS ARE LOVELY PEOPLE…ESPECIALLY THE FATHER. But my ex-fiancé is SO WOUNDED. I responded (re the Muskee accusation); that “I’m terribly sorry for the wounds that he has, but it wasn’t appropriate for him to take it out on me” Heck..I knew he LOVED fishing but didn’t know anything about him winning some competitions…Anyway, who the heck cares??? It was years ago too. His accusation was REDICULOUS and I wasn’t having any of it. He would often say things and then deny ever saying them. I had never known anyone in my life that “never said that” so many times…it was becoming ridiculous it happened so much. My girlfriend who is a therapist says she sees that quite a bit in divorce counseling when one partner (who said stuff) gets embarrassed, so they deny it. Then he was pushing us to get engaged and once we did, he was off for the summer. we got engaged in May and were getting married early August. He was 46 and I was 49 and we had dated about a year and had both been married before. (However, the different stories he told about his previous marriage didn’t quite add up as to why they got divorced, etc.). So, we get engaged in May, and then he is off school because the Community College is in summer session. His teaching load reduced dramatically and he only taught like 2 classes twice a week. I am a Realtor and this was my CRAZY busy season. We were planning the simple wedding. Then I noticed he started to get tit-fo-tat with me (which I can’t stand…it’s childish). Then he tells me that he doesn’t do good with too much unstructured downtime. He needs me to work less. HE HAD NOTHING GOING ON. I encouraged him to get back into some of the old things he loved to do. Get out with friends (which he never did…didn’t have current friends in his life but one from the campus (who he spoke down about) and another long-time friend that he saw once in a while. I, on the other hand have been blessed with a number of really great and loving friends who I am in contact with often. I have a very full life of involvement with my church (he told me I needed to quit a couple of my bible studies), a single mother of a then 6-yr old, managing a household, launching a new career as a realtor, etc., etc., etc. My life was great and full and he was another great part of it (at first). He on the otherhand sat at home all day and night. He then began to tell me that because of me he was medicating himself with food. He was 60 pounds overweight when I met him already?? Then toward the end of our relationship (because of the sexual abuse he experienced as a child from the priests) he told me that because I wouldn’t be intimate with him until we were married that because of me, he had become very emotionally and physically unhealthy. ARE YOU KIDDING me. A counselor once boldly told him…”you need to get a life’. Everything he did was big…he was a name dropper, everything his brothers and dad did were HUGE, he had done this this and that. He was the first in the world to have done this or the first in the country to have done that. When we had bigger decisions to make together, he would tell me, “honey, I made the last decision, why don’t you make this one”…then the next day he would take that away from me. He did that when it came to us shopping and buying a pontoon boat, it happened when we were planning the wedding, it happened when we were looking to buy a lake home in the U.P. of Michigan, etc. I didn’t get married for the first time until I was 42. I was very self sufficient. He used to tell me he was impressed at how I seemed to have my life together and have figured things out. Later he would turn that around and say “he doesn’t know what to do with me because he’s used to women needing him”. He would tell me that he’s lonely in the relationship (even though I cut back on my work hours) because he was home all the time. That his priority was having a family. I told him that was important to me too but I was still going to have my own interests. I also felt he needed to have some as well. HE CONTINUALLY told me from the beginning of when we started dating how he was TRULY different from all other guys. What I honestly learned is that he is manipulative is what he is. He also was GROSSLY insecure, so much that his ego couldn’t help itself. I often wondered if there were narcissistic tendencies because of how everything he did was so grandiose. There are some stories that would leave your jaw on the ground. Like how the house across the street was being rented and 3 young guys were living there. They’re young so cars were always coming and going. Well, my fiancé (Frank) said that it looked like a drug house. (was it possible, sure; probable, no). He said he was going to have his cop brother look into I. I live in a far north suburb of Chicago. His brother is a Chicago cop…not likely. So weeks go by and I hear nothring. He tells me, “you don’t need to worry about it; it’s being handled”. SERIOUSLY??? This type of stuff went on all the time. Another time, he told me he was in the faculty lounge at the college and the president of the college came up to him. My fiancé said, to me later as he spoke about it, “Honey, you should have seen all the eyes on me”…SAY WHAT??? He had SUCH AN EGO because HE IS SO INSECURE. As I shared, the stories go on and on. Now, I noticed he has a website. 50% of the info on the website, I know for a fact to be GROSS exaggerations..if not true at all.
Needless to say, I brokeoff the engagement and went merrily on my way. I have no time for nonsense at this stage of my life.
So, I’ve often wondered….is he just deeply wounded and therefore possesses DEEP INSECURITY that manifests itself in gross displays of EGO or….
he’s he some form of a narcissist. When I research narcissism, there are bits and pieces that seem to be him, but I’m not sure. He is a very bright person
so I also think he has an edge in trying to mask the outward narcissistic behaviors. I’ve seen him “catch” himself once or twice.
What are your thoughts from the bits and pieces I’ve shared?
Hi Bryce, Sorry to hear you sad story. However, many Christians get very confused, especially when it comes to love and compassion. As you are a Christian, I will remind you that there are many versus in the Bible that talk about “taking responsibility and not being naive”. This is a Spiritual Law…. not to be naive. Here are some examples from the Bible to help you get clear:
Proverbs 14:15 ESV The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps.
Romans 16:18 ESV . For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Proverbs 27:12 ESV The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it.
Matthew 10:16 ESV / “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
Proverbs 7:7 ESV / And I have seen among the simple, I have perceived among the youths, a young man lacking sense,
Proverbs 1:32 ESV / For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them;
1 Corinthians 14:20 ESV / Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature.
Proverbs 21:11 ESV / When a scoffer is punished, the simple becomes wise; when a wise man is instructed, he gains knowledge.
1 Corinthians 14:33 ESV / For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
Proverbs 19:25 ESV / Strike a scoffer, and the simple will learn prudence; reprove a man of understanding, and he will gain knowledge.
Proverbs 1:4 ESV / To give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth—
Proverbs 1:22 ESV /“How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge?
Proverbs 22:3 ESV / The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it.
Proverbs 8:5 ESV / O simple ones, learn prudence; O fools, learn sense.
Romans 16:19 ESV / For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil.
Proverbs 14:18 ESV / The simple inherit folly, but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.
There is lots written about narcissism on the Internet. Knowledge is one thing, but knowing what to do with that knowledge is WISDOM.
Stay safe and take care of the life God gave you because it does not last long.
Warmest regards
Christine
I just figured out this Covert Narcissist thing and it TOTALLY fits my wife.
I won’t go into all the details but in October she was crying about leaving me in 2008. (She stayed gone for 9 months)
She said I wish I’d never left.
I told her, “If I forgive you and God forgives you that then is a mandate for you to forgive yourself.
Two months later she left again with her Peter Pan Narcissistic son.
He had purposely impregnated an at risk single parent mom in order let her brood his baby then take the baby away from her.
Problem…. I now get it…. but I am a Bible Believing Christian and feel obligated to try and win her back… believe me… I would just as soon let her go …. but I believe the Biblical mandate for the Husband is to give his life for his bride if need be
I have already put myself through hell to save her life…it would have been far easier to have died.. for her.
She has no appreciation for what I have done for her.
She cares not that I have loved her unconditionally for 23 years.
So….. is there any way too help someone that is a Covert Narcissist?
So
Dear Christine,
Thank you for reading. At the moment I am seeing a therapist because of dealing with the cptsd. He is helping me with learning to trust my own feelings and making me aware of my boundaries. My own mind-games without judging, I feel as if I can show and tell everything about myself even my narcissistic thoughts. He will not fall for it in any way, he returns it back to me by knowing his own boundaries. I remember I crossed a boundary a bit with one friend. But the minute he protected his boundary I felt falling back in place. I did not feel judged or neglected, or insulted. I was relieved by knowing this is his boundary. I didn’t thought about it in this way at the moment but I remember the feeling of not having to worry about his emotional well-being because he will let me know if there is anything wrong. He can take care of himself. Made me realize my ex and me didn’t set any boundaries because we both don’t/didn’t know how or when it is crossed. I don’t have a personality disorder but the traits I do have are damaging for my friends, family and me. I’ve noticed many people carry narcissistic traits but it does not make them have a personality disorder. But it can be toxic. I believe it can make you aware of your own self and if you are having a healthy relationship with yourself. I’ve been reading about co-dependency and it all sounds very familiar.
Well, thanks again.
M.
Hi M,
I think it is great that you are willing to work on yourself, identify the narcissistic traits you want to change, and hopefully you can find some compassion for yourself. Before we can truly relate to others, we need to enter into a healthy relationship with ourself so that we can develop our beautiful True Self. It sounds as if there was a lot of hurt in your childhood, and you may need to continue to work with a therapist so that you can deal with that wounded part. Although therapy can be hard, it can also be a great adventure to discover who you really are, warts and all, and learn to love and nurture yourself as an individual self. When you can do that, then you can love and nurture others in a healthy way, without the co-dependency. I wish you every success on your journey of self discovery. Warmest regards. Christine
Hi, (sorry for the long story, essay and sorry for my English grammar and errors)
I’m soaking up all of the information on this blog and yes I too am a narcissist. I grew up with narcissistic parents, have been sexually abused by a narcissist and the partners (just 2 of them) I have chosen have narcissistic traits as well.
The last partner I had flared up my narcissistic traits, feelings of inferiority, feelings of not being good enough, jealousy towards him, huge depressions, untreated cptsd symptons. Which are slowly being treated now. But during this relationship where my depressions and anxiety feelings got severe I went to seek for professional help. Almost the whole relationship I have seen a therapist, because I had this huge need of fixing myself because there was something wrong with me and I couldn’t grasp what is was.
I was having these large depressive periods since we started living together and to me it made me feel there was something wrong with me. My ex, always supported me and I always had the feeling things didn’t change but he always said he did see change in my behaviour. But things like feeling jealous of him, I feel very ashamed about that. I used to wish I received the same attention he got from people, I wished I was a people-magnet like him. I thought everybody loved him and everybody hated me the minute ‘they’ layed eyes on me. The feeling of not feeling good enough, or a bad person. Sort of explains a lot about my destructive behaviour. I know my mom was very unhappy and her unhappiness made me feel like I did something wrong and when time passed by something happened, in my case I told about the sexual abuse by her boyfriend and she kicked me out of the house. Rejected me. She did this to all of my sisters as well for whatever reason. Back then it was a confirmation of my feelings of you are not worthy of walking this earth and I have searched high and low to confirm myself in this weird rooted empty feeling of not deserving any love from anyone. And even with the therapy I had I was not able to stop this way of thinking, until now. Now I’m seeing what this way of thinking is doing and basically it is not true. Slowly it is unraveling it’s ugly face because I’m depriving it from food.
Towards my ex I always said negative things about myself and one time he said to me something like if I talk bad about myself it felt like I didn’t take him seriously. It shocked me, woke me up because it was true. I started experiencing these feelings myself when my sister is talking bad about herself. It does feel that way. But it did not really go away.
I believe my ex is having narcissist traits as well because the things he could say to me or make me feel not good enough. Things like in order to talk about his feelings or emotions he needed someone to ask the right questions and I blamed myself for not asking the right questions because I always felt like I couldn’t reach him. We talked about this and then he would tell me about how his parents weren’t able to reach him when he was a kid. So I wasn’t the only one who felt this way. I felt like a bad gf, I wanted him so bad to spill his guts. Lean on me for a while because he helped me a lot I wanted to help him as well when needed. But maybe this was my way of feeling important? Later on I grew the opinion that he needs to give me something in order for me to ask the right questions. I can’t look inside your head and know what is going on. It made me feel like he didn’t took me seriously in helping. It left me confused and angry.
I felt guilty towards him because it was always about my problems, my difficult childhood, me me me. Now I’m thinking that because I was so caught up in my own problems there was little room for him, where was I when he needed me. I knew he had a hard time talking, but I didn’t really helped him. But he also had a tendency of telling me what to do. Giving me pointers and I thought he was entitled to do so because I saw myself as dumb, not knowing anything and just plain stupid. At a certain point it felt like he was always on top of me and I thought having a time-out would be a good idea. We we’re both very much hurting when we wanted to split up and decided not to do so. Not ready for it.
After that time we started to become emotionally detached from eachother. I felt guilty of falling into the same emotional rollercoasters I started to hide it as much as I was able to. I did not wanted to hear his opinion about it because it only made me feel worse and I did not want any pointers. And he had an opinion about everything but so did I. But it seemed like I didn’t, because I didn’t speak up.
The both of us played psychological games on eachother where he could make me feel inferior where he demanded that I expressed myself verbally correct or else he wasn’t able to understand me correctly. Well, maybe it was true because I did have a hard time trying to use the right words to make myself clear in what I’m trying to say. But he could also asked me to rephrase myself.
I caught myself feeling superior towards him, there was a certain moment where I suddenly said to myself about him. ‘Actually you are full of shit, you have an opinion about everything but it is based on nothing.’ Because I always felt like he could outsmart me with his words and agree with things I actually didn’t agree with. I started looking down on him, whereas I first uplifted him and now he seemed not perfect I looked down on him? WTF? I was angry. I should have come clean about my feelings and thoughts instead of feeding it with anger and let it grow into this huge jealousy monster.
At a certain point my ex started to become close to a female friend and I felt extremely jealous, ofcourse who wouldn’t. But I felt the feelings of jealousy were my responsibility. I was the one who was having a problem with her not him. I’m writing it down and I’m like…eh? When I expressed my feelings towards him he would always give me this sympathy look. Which felt strange because I wanted him to take responsibility. Not sure what I wanted from him, maybe in being honest about his true feelings about me and her.
Things started to get worse after I went into this spiritual therapy in the beginning of january of 2014 where I learned to speak up and say what I thought. Actually where I started to show my narcissistic side more, I slowly started expressing my opinion up until today. I started to learn how to twist things around with words, I believed it was good because I had to learn to speak up. The therapy ended and in a way I felt like working on myself in that manner didn’t feel right. Something was off. Now I realise it was just feeding my narcissistic side.
Not long after the therapy the relationship ended in september 2014 and my narcissitic traits grew even bigger. It was clear we needed distance from one another so the true healing could begin. We didn’t spoke to eachother for like 6 months and saw eachother again on a birthday party of a mutual friend in march 2015. In the meantime I wasn’t able to feed myself with narcissistic fuel from him. I was able to stay with a friend from my early 20’s and her boyfriend for like 7 or 8 months until I found my own place. They show me normal social skills and how to love, care and show empathy. They mean a lot to me.
My ex and I met again and that’s where my and I guess his as well, destructive behaviour patterns slowly became visible. We started feeding of our narcisstic needs on one and another. He could make me feel insecure about the way I dressed by making comments about my clothes and saying that he just saw improvements everywhere. And I was extremely sensitive for having his attention, his approval. Him wanting me again. Feelings of being special. So I started visiting him because I liked being around him, but at the same time I felt drained. It even gotten to the point where I ended up in bed with him and where he told me he finally had sex with the girl he had a crush on. I’m not sure if I asked him to tell me or he told me himself. I ended up in letting him do something that he always wanted to do because I wanted him to like me so bad and I didn’t wanted to come of as prudish. I talked myself into it as well because he did the same thing to that other girl and I didn’t want to fall behind.
I went on a date with a guy thinking I should be doing this, I should be going on dates. I am in my 30’s now and this is what people do. I should be wearing my clothes in a way so I look my best. I became even more obsessed with my appearance, I already was by believing I’m ugly. I always believed the other sex perceived me as ugly and that I should be gratefull that I even got one guy interested in me. And now this guy wasn’t interested in me anymore. If he isn’t nobody will. AAAAAH!!! I felt completely weird about myself, I didn’t recognize myself anymore, I knew the way I was thinking was unhealthy. I still couldn’t wrap my brain around it. I did started to talk bad about him but it felt wrong. Very wrong. But still, I did this for a while and I feel bad about it. I feel sorry I did this. I wonder now if I feel sorry for my own image to the outside world. I guess I do, I’m the one who is making myself look stupid. He has always been positive about me. He could be very supportive but he could also say things like I’m sorry I’m being a bit strict with you but I mean well. Something like that, while holding me. I behaved as a little kid getting scolded by one of his parents. Eyes avoiding, looking down. My first boyfriend once gave me that look and I thought: What the hell? Looking back now, I acted up the same childlike behavior.
One of the last time we went on this drama loop is he heard me talking saying I found out I wasn’t ready to date other men. We started talking to eachother and it turned into this weird conversation where I started playing the victim role and he started telling me what to do with this dating thing. He was giving me advice that I should sexually experiment with other guys. And I was being tiny and crying and I don’t know what. I was shocked by my own behaviour, by his behaviour. It felt old. The next day we had a little email contact. He send me a picture of a rabbit he had seen in the park, asking me if I felt better. Trying to make me feel better. I then pulled the plug, I played the no-contact-card. I got scared, I was shocked and I strongly felt we were toxic to eachother. I still believe we are.
This is where I also found out I was suffering from cptsd and it slowly came to me how this affected the relationship. We were always aware of our roles to eachother. We were very aware that I played this victim role I couldn’t get out of and he played this rescuer role.
If I think back about the stuff I said to him, my perceptions of things I think back I’m like blablabla what was I thinking. Stupid. I don’t know shit.
Ok, last encounter…this has become a really long story. We we’re still having this account together which needed to be closed. I received an email where he shortly explained that I didn’t needed to worry about his flaws because he was aware of it himself. I wasn’t worried about it at all. He asked if we could meet or talk because he received this letter. At first I said sure and after that I had this feeling of ‘Fuck! I’m falling for it again!’ Not sure if this feeling was legit. I then sent an angry email telling him that on second thought I didn’t want to meet. That he should handle this on his own because he is capable of doing so. Kind of arrogant talk. Later on, I felt guilty that I talked to him in this way. I said I was sorry and that it was better to end this quick instead of hard and slow. We’ve met, showed him my new house. I did like seeing him. I felt intimidated by him because he was very open and loving and I just felt how closed up I am. He did mention he had a date and I stopped him and asking if he was going to tell me how great it was and such. Then he mentioned the other times I asked by myself about the dates and ended up in feeling bad. But I was the one who asked about it so it was my own fault for feeling that way. So, yeah maybe I shouldn’t have asked about it. Maybe that is my way of making him feel guilty whereas I’m the one who is asking and making him spill his gut. And then not liking what I hear and making him feel bad about it? What the hell? When he left he mentioned he was happy he and I have been together and he didn’t regret a thing. I could not really say the same at that time. He then asked for a hug and I did not really wanted to but I did anyway because I thought I should deal with this as adults. It left me angry towards myself, there you go again doing things you actually don’t really want to do.
Other stuff happened where I became aware of my narcissistic traits in my way of thinking. Not even so long ago. I started writing on my blog, haha…well I’m not sharing this blog with anyone. I have no visitors and I like to keep it that way. It appears that writing is making me confronting myself with my own behaviour. I feel ashamed about what I have done, blindness. It feels like I’m waking up. It also feels like I’m starting to take responsibility about my past. Yes, I’ve had a rough childhood but I’ve made a mess too. I need to change. If I look upon covert narcissistic traits I feel it’s me, if I look upon victim traits I feel it’s me as well. I feel the urge into telling all this to him but at the same time I have this thing saying don’t do it. Is it because I’m worried about my image or is it because I am truly sorry or am I afraid of giving him ammo? But maybe this is something I would do towards him, would I? I’m just questioning my every move now. I have to let everything sink in and see how it unravels. Sometimes I find myself thinking it’s ok the clothes your wearing aren’t the best, It’s ok your house isn’t really presentable at the moment. It’s ok to be plain Jane, actually it is stress-relieving. Even today I caught myself in thinking: Shit, I’m having this party tonight. I have to look my best in order to project a normal image of myself. The next moment I’m like, huh? Why do you think like that? You don’t have to do anything, except enjoying the time together. And the stress goes away, stress of trying to be special or lovable, interesting, funny, smart. Sometimes it does feel like I’ve picked up these narcissistic traits from my ex as well, it feels like this strange mask. It does feel like childlish behavior. I have tried to copy him in social interactions and it feels weird, because I thought my skills weren’t even there. But before I’ve met him I didn’t even question myself so much as I do now. I do finally find myself saying I’m happy I have had this relationship with him. It is making me look into this pitch black mirror or reflection of me and it aint a pretty sight. It’s making me grow up. The covert narcissism is having many faces but it all is coming down onto one thing. Feelings of being not good enough and trying to fill this up with whatever.
Thank you for listening.
For the past 3 years I have been up and down feeling crazy and trying to understand and figure out my relationship with my boyfirend…ex now. He is not the narcissist, it is his ex-girlfriend who he calls his best friend. He is the co-dependent. He takes on most of her beliefs and is always worried about what she needs. She is always in turmoil and acts like the “suffering victim” because her daughter is bi-polar. She is a therapist and uses NLP and other techniques to “help” people but seems to be lacking the compassion connection. They both like to sit around and make fun of what they dont like or agree with in people. She sits on her computer mostly all day and talks about how much she knows and studies and he calls her “well read”. No one can say anything negative or give her any advice because its too upsetting to her. I had a dream that she didnt want to hear because it wasnt positive which included her. One day I was feeling depressed and expressed that to her and she said bluntly “whats your excuse, just be glad you dont have a bi-polar daughter like I do” I felt really bad after that like my feelings didnt matter. Ive broken it off with this boyfriend a couple of times because I just couldnt get a grip on my feelings….I thought there was something wrong with me and I was just reactive from past wounds. Recently I broke it off for good and now I am finding all this stuff out and Im so glad I am free of that now. But I am still dealing with emotions from it. I told her what I thought and it did not go over well of course. She said I am just angry and projecting onto her. And that she didnt need my anger. Then she said I was acting like a baby…what a weird response! Thank you for this awareness.
Meylis I have a comment on your case, since I am a lot similar. There is an ubreakable bond between covert narcissism and various paraphilias, especially one condition that used to be called paraphilia, but since 1973. it is not. As my therapist explained to me, the second face of narcisissm is shame about yourself. Narcisist actually dont like themselves. The link between covert narcissism and that particular brand of paraphilia is: A man can love himself as he is. A man can love himself as he wants himself to be.
Hi Daniel, You are very young to know so much about narcissism, but that is a good thing. I don’t know if you truly are a narcissist, but it is very unusual for a narcissist to even question that there is something wrong with them…..believe me….. unless doing so in a way to get attention. Also, there is nothing like a narcissist to bring out our own pathology, and you say you grew up with two narcissists…….. so perhaps some of your own behaviour is a way a child managed to survive.
We are all narcissistic to some degree, indeed we need to be….. actually, it pushes us towards our own self-actualization. But if you think you are pushing the envelop a bit far, then once you are willing to work on yourself and balance yourself out, then you can get back to your True Self. Hope your therapy goes well.
The covert describes my dad to a Tee, absolutely spot on.
The overt describes my mum to a Tee, absolutely spot on.
Sadly the covert also describes me to a tee too. Im only 17, iv’e been patronized by many doctors who don’t really know what NPD is, saying that its clear to them that im not a narcissist (because i was anxious infront of them), and that also my parents probably arent either its just exam stress playing with my mind.
Im on the waiting list to see a therapist, but i know she doesn’t know what NPD is, as i already had a ‘taster’ session with her and she had no clue.
It’s hard to get taken seriously, as anyone who criticizes their parents as a teen is normally thought of as a moody teenager. Well yeah im moody.
I’m often vulnerable, more so lately as ive realised im a narcissist, and it’s like the walls of defense around my brain have crumbled, and im now left as the scared emotionally abused child that caused me to be a narc in the first place.
I looked at Narc Victim Syndrome, and for a while i tried to lie to myself saying i had that, but i am fully a covert narcissist. No empathy, 100% self-indulged, no care for anyone else, yet i portray myself as the exact opposite. But i dont even do this on purpose, its just like natural to me to act the ‘angel’.
I know that if i had the (false) confidence that the overt narc had i would be doing the same things that they would, using people showing off etc.
It pisses me off because unlike the overt narcs im close to, im actually very clever. They are somantic narcs, solely relying on their good-looks.
Yet i lack the iniative to show off my intelligence, i feel ashamed at the slightest remark, yet if nobody stops me i would terrorize somebody, really wearing them down mentally and getting into their head. I dont realise im doing this, its like a small percentage of my brain realises i may be doing wrong, but the rest cant care or stop.
Its really shit, people would feel sorry for me if my parents were narcs and i wasnt one, but because i am 1.. who feels sorry for a narc?
People say narcs are evil… am i evil? Ive always felt im the reciever of abuse, but i guess that might be because my brain suppresses the memory of abuse ive given others.
When i get to show off, or if i do something good/clever and people realise, and I DONT get embarassed, i feel free. I feel like this is what i deserve, this is what i was made for, i feel alive again. But this is rare, and im often conscious of not wanting to appear a show – off as theres an overt narc in my class and he is extremely annoying. Going on about his philosophical ideas, which everyone finds hilarious. But i dont even want to be an overt narcissist, i just want to be me, the real me. Not this piece of shit defense mechanism which is destroying my soul. And its not even my fault im a narc, its my parents for being narcs and moulding me into one, ive been like this as long as i remember. I just used to be more overt, its like i started to realise i was a narc a few years ago, and ever since ive become more unsure of myself, and now ive become covert. It really sucks
Hi Jamie, It does not sound as if you are ready to have this partner out of your life just yet. However you are researching and beginning to work out his behaviours. What you explain is someone who is somewhere along the line of a malignant narcissist and a psychopath………. further along the narcissistic scale that I explain in my book The Three Faces of Evil: Unmasking the Full Spectrum of Narcissistic Abuse (which should go on sale from my website from end of April 2015).
What you explain is very worrying, he sounds like a dangerous man to me. He has you under his power and control, and is able to totally manipulate and seduce you into submission. However, until you are ready to let him go, there is little anybody can do to help you. I would urge you to get yourself into therapy to deal with your loss of self worth (which gets eroded when with a narcissist), and look at the reasons you allow this abuse time after time. Don’t worry about trying to change him, that is not going to happen…… you can only change yourself. Warmest regards. Christine
So, I’ve done a lot of reading and digging to figure out what my ex common law was. So many people told me they felt that he had a personality disorder. I started reading up sociopaths and narcissist and it led me to here.
This man I’ve known since I was 13, so 16 years now. We were together for 4 1/2 yrs. this man was my world, my everything and I did absolutely everything for him. He ever felt down, I was there to encourage him, to give him the confidence to do whatever it is he wanted. He came from a rough back ground and I tried to show him light in life, you know those movies when you see the guy or girl that’s a player and is doing all these things and that one person comes along and changes their life and ways because they fall in love? Well, that’s what I thought I would be. However, he was always emotionally putting me down, calling me stupid or crazy, or that my way of thinking was crazy. That I seemed to have bipolar and need help. Other then that we were alright. He left me once for a week about year and some ago and came back. He had two giant hickies on his neck, told me some girl bit him and he pushed her away and she did it on the other side and he eventually told her to F off. Funny enough, that story I truly do not believe period. But, I took him back, through out our relationship he seemed so desperate for female attention, massive amounts of porn, talking about sex with girls, behind my back, secrets and lies that are now coming to shine. Him and I have a son who will be three tomorrow. He took on my other three kids from previous marriage.
So, back in January my best friend and I were inseparable and she was always at my house or is there…. Eventually, I started to just get a gut feeling that Ah something was forming between them. It’s hard to explain little signs, like him not sitting on couch with me, but with her. Ah, just whispering, or secretive etc. So end of January I eventually snapped and said I’m uncomfortable with this, I don’t like it. He said I was thinking stupid and that there was nothing there… Next thing you know he ended it with me, totally ended it. I was devastated… But, funny enough guess where he moved too? Her house. So for four weeks, it was the first week I don’t want you, next week he did, vice versa. He was cruel the first week, he was just heartless. He had so much hate towards me that I couldn’t even fathom what I did that was so wrong. He said that even though he stays there, he sleeps on her couch and its a place to stay. There is nothing going on. Anyway family day he came by to see kids, once they went to bed he sits down and my three yr old is sitting there and he says do you know why I came? I said to see the kids? He said no I came to kill you, I was like what? He’s like yah last few weeks I’ve fantasized about it. The look in his eyes I will never forget, they were dark piercing and nothing no emotion. I said well if your going to kill me, then do it. He’s like you won’t fight? I said nope, I will not give you that satisfaction. He’s like so you don’t care about the kids? I said I do, but I won’t let you have that satisfaction of wAtching me fight. He then said he didn’t plan to kill me he just wanted to see my reaction. Then went on to state that if any man came near me he’d dismember them and bury them. He left…
He texted saying he was glad he got to see me and for the most part enjoyed his time. I told him to F off and all hope I ever had for him was done. That I was done. He begged for me to talk to him and not loose hope, promised it would never happen again and I ignored him. Next day he calls at 6:50 am and woke me up, didn’t even look I answered. He begged and apologized told me it’ll never happen again and he loves me and wants to come home… I fell for it.
He came back home slowly moved his stuff back in the span of two days told my “best” friend a lie on where he was going. We were all so excited to have him back. But, then he was back. I had to get his food on a plate, if I didn’t he wasn’t happy. He was emotionally and verbally abuse telling me to shut up, the world would be a better place if I couldn’t talk. Putting down all the positives I was doing. He became sexually abusive. He thought it was funny when he wrapped his legs around me neck and squeezed and I started to try and get him to stop, slapping my breast over and over until it had red dots all over it for days. Adding girls on fb, the porn everything. It lasted a week and I kicked him out. I got the silent treatment for a week.. Then he texted wanting to know if I still loved him because he was lost and scared and alone and didn’t have his guiding light anymore. So I met with him on Monday. He said he wants to try “dating” and see if we work that way and live apart, because if he moves in and it doesn’t and then moves out again it’ll be hard on kids etc. I caught him once again lying about a girl and still does. He admits now to drinking an being drunk every night and that he is part of 100+ porn pages on fb which I seen yesterday he is. This is who he is and this is what I get kind of thing.
I asked him why he doesn’t want anyone to know about the whole “dating” thing and he said all the guys from work which are all his friends know, and only ones that matter. Yet, on Fb he blocked me and added all these girls and refuses to let them know he’s dating his “wife” again. It’s like a double life. I believe he Is with my best friend and not on her couch, and I believe he has other girls and now Ive gone from main women to side women. I did everything for him, I love him and it’s hard to let go. But, I can’t put up with the porn, the girls and everything else. I feel he needs me, but reading up on narcissist they really don’t need me. But, so far I’m the longest relationship he’s had and I’m the idiot whose stayed long enough and put up with it, because I do love him. On weekend I told him I didn’t want dating I wanted him home as a family and he said well, now he going to use Shannon and stay there since he only pays her 300$ a month and help refurnish our basement and when that’s all done he will move in. This sounds so fishy, why if you truly want your family wouldn’t you jump at chance to come home? I’m emotionally a wreck, I have never been so low in my life.
Same thing Christine. Covert male narcissist which exhibited all of the symptoms you write about and then right after, on overt female narcissist. I think I was being tested for durability. 🙂
Being the child of a Overt Narc father and a Covert Narc mother was tons of fun, since both were pillars of the community while making life an alcoholic hell at home for my brothers and I (I got to play scapegoat and be the pingpong ball of triangulation, as well!). We learned early to hide everything going on from the “real world” to protect them, even if it cost us and made us look bad — that I gave up my career (and any real chance of dating) and quit grad school to return home to take care of them in their old age shows how their plans worked. My mother’s passed away now — her last words were telling me how much I had failed her — but my father continues to get worse both as a Narc and an alcoholic (even now willing to publicly act out to disrupt events where I’m being honored or such, since he can explain it away as age- or health-related issues and get sympathy). I’m under no illusions about what they did to me or how broken I am as a result, but I realize how late it is to do anything but keep the secrets long enough for my father to live out the rest of his life; at least then my brothers can live their lives out without the secrets being revealed to the whole world then…
My recently departed partner is a covert Narc and you nailed the description to a Tee!
I’m a covert narcissist and I’m trying to fix this as it has totally ruined my life. My father is overt type and my mother and brother are quite codependent. Obviously, I have other mental illnesses which, I believe, have contributed to my narcissism. I’ve been diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder type 1, Compulsive Sexual Disorder ( paraphilic type ), Obsessive Compulsive disorder at Mayo Clinic. As you’ve said in the article I’m quite shy; in fact very shy. Sometimes, I cannot leave home for weeks. I cannot tolerate loss. Whenever I lose I get furious and have rage attacks. There was this guy at fitness club who I had a problem with. Long story short, I had him beaten up after a year and a half after the argument. The idea is to eliminate anything that causes rage in me. Believe it or not, I tried everything to forget the incident, but it just would n’t work. I’ve done a lot of damage to some members of my family which I feel no shame or guilt or remorse. I justify it as ” they made me like this”. I thought about all my life other day and thought maybe I can’t feel all that biologically. I’ve done things which, if I was caught, I would be in jail for a long time. I was lucky I was never caught. Maybe because I plan things carefully in details; for a long time. So every now and then I work on my empathy. It’s hard for me to put myself in someone else’s shoes, so I do all kinds of exercise. Like, for instance, I watch news about terrorist attack or something and try to empathise. I’ll tell you this; it’s hard. I just don’t feel anything. Unlike other narcissists, I admit that it’s a disorder and I’m going to dead end If I don’t do anything about it. I’ve been in jail once and I don’t want to go there again. Please don’t write I’m a horrible person – I already know that. Let’s look at it scientifically as cause and effect thing. Judging me won’t work. I’m writing all this because I know someone making research will read it and apply it. I’ve made a decision long time ago that I won’t marry anyone nor will I date or have kids or manipulate or exploit anyone. My brother has been with me for a and I only manipulated him once and it happened automatically without realisation. I try to recognise symptoms and act accordingly.
I am a psychotherapist in nyc treating many women with trauma. Your site has been so helpful.pls add my email to your updates.
Thank you,
I’m very concerned that I exhibit a great deal of the covert narcissistic tendencies. I have my good days, when I’m excited to work, I’m warm and encouraging of others and actually seek out attention in positive ways (I perform and act, and can do so well when I apply preparation and learned technique). However, this last year I’ve been underemployed and seem to be on this really bad slip. Most of this last year, I avoid going outside, I avoid finding more/better employment, I fixate on negative things about my girlfriend and I find myself filling with rage at strangers. I could keep laundry listing my tendencies, but really I want to get over my narcicissim and be a productive person. How do I find help? I’d like to talk to somebody, but I don’t even know the first step. I have Anthem health insurance, can that in any way pay for therapy?
I was married to a (male) covert narcissist – my first marriage – we didn’t make it to our first anniversary. I completely agree with the distction, and because these types seem quiet and unassuming they can do a lot of damage (and the DO) and the victim is less likely to have support. I don’t think my own family initially believed me. It was a very frustrating and lonely year that seemed to last forever and haunted me for the next 20. It seems that he only proposed suddenly because I got a big promotion at work and was on the career fast-track. He probably resented my success and the attention I was getting so he sabotaged it – making HIMSELF the center of attention. Even at our wedding he glared at my best friend and gave her a nasty look because she complimented me lavishly as the bride. Mist men would be proud of a stand-out woman. He was, but also wanted the praise for having hOoked one I guess. He suddenly had to get a new job himself at least an hour away (all 3 jobs he applied for were at least one hour away) requiring us to move. Isolation – that was the next step. When we moved to our new apartment an hour away, I was of course jobless and looking. I think he enjoyed that. We had a situation that required discussion and I voiced a criticism. I’ll swear, though it took forever for me to make the connection, that was when he felt he had the rught to punish me- he declared war on me. These types will seethe for a while as they make their attack plans, so it wouldn’t be unusual to seem abrupt and mysterious. But their reaction – exacting reveng on their spouse – DOES count ad narcissistic RAGE – it never has to get physical. Suddenly he starts agitating for marriage counseling but would never tell me why – BEWARE! I finally relented, thinking ok I’ll humor him – maybe we’ll get something out of it. I let him “pick” a counselir – bad idea! It quickly became apoarent he had spent weeks screening and finding a counselor who ate out of his hand. I could tell from statements this woman made they had spoken before. Long story short, he tried to have me “committed” to a mental health facility! I left him that night. I also found out that while making me promise to keep confidentiality regarding our marriage counseling, he exempted himself – and behind my back had called everyone we knew plus both our families telling them all that I was “gravely mentally ill and in need of immediate hospitalization.” It seems he was afraid I’d reveal his flaw (my criticism so many weeks before) to others so he had to discredit me somehow, like “don’t listed to her, she’s crazy!” and duh, how many men try to say THAT about their wives? As old as Caesar’s shorts…lots more that happened after that with his lies and manipulations, which blew up in his face and when it all git too big for him to control and he was exposed, he disappeared – with a phoney veneer of arrogance. I had challenged him to an MMPI test – in fact implored him and finalky REQUIRED it of him – which he refused to do and got anxious every time I brought it up. Tee- hee once I informed him the test has a built-in “lie-factor,” the player didn’t want any part if it. No congidence in his power to BS? Paradoxically, in what he did to me he made HIMSELF look crazy, and made himself look WORSE than any original criticism I voiced to him! How they ruin their lives. After 25+ years I recently looked at his LinkedIn profile and laughed like heck – he calls himself “a 4.0 Magnum cum Lade!” spelling??? And a 4.0 is a summa cum laude- no wonder he’s unemployed.
Hi Sandra, Thank you for your post. I am sorry to hear that you had a narcissistic mother, that is not a good start for any child. One thing I do know is the narcissists can trigger narcissistic reactions in their victims. I believe that it is the frustration of the gaslighting behaviour that is so frustrating and confusing…… creating a nervous outburst. I am normally a quiet person, I don’t raise my voice (I don’t have any need to, all my family, son, daughter and husband are lovely reasonable soft souls). However, I am ashamed to tell you that a few years ago I was having a really bad time with a narcissist who was tying me up in knots with her dysfunctional gaslighting games. I put up with her nonsense far too long, but on one occasions I lost it, I really lost it in the middle of the street. To my shame I roared at her. It devastated me, I was totally shocked that I could even do that…..I just cracked. Even more confusing for me was that this person told me that
she was delighted that I shouted at her, that it was my silence that upset her, the fact that I shouted at her she translated that I must really care for her for me to have done that. To be honest, that was the furthest thing from the truth……. I had actually come to the end of my patience with her, and in truth I thought that was probably the end of the relationship. She was as happy as Larry for the rest of the day, whereas I was totally devastated and disgusted by my own behaviour.
I am not surprised that you have fantasies of getting what you failed to get as a child…. as humans, that is what we do. What we have to do is to learn how to provide that need from within ourselves….. but first there is some work to do in order to deal with the repressed pain of the child. You probably know at a head level that every individual is special, with you have your own unique gifts and talents (which may have got buried) while you tended to your mothers own repressed child. Hopefully, one of these days you will do the healing work, and find your own true beauty that you came into the world with. Children of narcissistic mother’s are not allowed to shine (unless it is giving her glory), and then it is back into the shadow, and it is never safe to outshine this type of mother.
Those negative feelings of envy that you sometimes feel can become positive. Negative envy is telling us that we want what the other person has, and narcissists are very nasty, they want to rob the person of that thing, and will go out of their way to sabbotage or discredit the person. Envy is also a reason why many narcissists go after narcissistic supply, so that they can get it for themselves. But you say you are not malicious with it, so perhaps your envy is trying to get your attention. Positive envy is really useful, for it makes us ask “what did that person do to in order to become successful?”, and then we can make them our role model for achieving our own success in a similar way. For example, I was quite shy (Like Echo,I earned to live in the shadow of a narcissistic psychopathic brother all my childhood, it was not safe to outshine him, so I didn’t). I remember envying someone (in a positive way) who was a great motivational speaker. So I studied him, and by modelling him I realized that the things I admired in him most were actual qualities I possessed myself (his confidence in his subject matter, his knowledge etc), but I needed to just do it if I were to share my knowledge. Well I did it, I got up there in front of people, I ran my own
workshops. Was I perfect, “No”, but I was good enough to make what I did very successful, but in my own quiet and unique way.
Regarding “covert narcissism”…… I was writing from a different standpoint than other researchers. Read other researchers take on the subject that may touch on what you were looking for. I was trying to get away from the notion that all narcissists are all high flyers who are successful out there in high places. I wanted to show that there is also the reclusive type, but they still manage to do the same terrible power behaviour over their family.
Regarding your question about narcissists suffering NVS, I think they are also suffering from abuse. I know my brother was treated incredibly badly in school by the brothers (priests), they did their best to break his spirit, making him into a very willful child. My parent were very loving, but he seemed to have had difficulties from a very young age. He was involved in a terrible accident when he was about 2 years old (he fell out of an upstairs window head first onto concrete. I think it is highly likely that he suffered from frontal lobe damage, which cuts out ones sense of conscience, and his behaviour got worse as he got older. At times he could be a beautiful soul, but then he was the most terrorizing person you could meet…… like Jack Nickholson character in the movie The Shining.
I have 2 main narcissists in my life. One is my mother. Her narcissism is overt, but her abuse is covert. However the covert narcissism does not describe her at all – or any narcissist I know personally. However it does describe me to some extent. I wouldn’t be surprised if children of narcissists that suffer narcissistic victim syndrome also have covert narcissist tendencies simply because they have been trained to have such a low opinion of themselves. I know I have fantasies about being special and extremely successful and have feelings of resentment at those who are successful, but certainly not in a malicious way, more in a depressed way. I am also difficult to live with but these are all issues NVS people have. Is there a possibility that Covert narcissists are or have suffered from NVS?